Author Comment Ernie Camacho (10/11/00 8:59:12 am) Rigid Wing News / Discussion Now that Vince has a Rigid, we'll be talking more about this class of HG. To keep things in on place, I'll cut/paste messages from other separate topics to this one. They'll live longer here and we'll cut clutter on the BB. Andy (10/11/00 9:02:29 am) Experienced ATOS Pilot Spins (originally posted 8/28/00) I posted this as a new topic because I feel that it is so important that everyone see this. Like I said before, this is a BIG PROBLEM!!! Here's George Ferris' account of his spin on his ATOS. Pretty creepy. George has been flying hang gliders forever, over 30 years I think. "I have over 200 hours on my Atos and previous to this incident I have never experienced a tendency for the Atos to spin. There was no warning, like previously stated by other pilots. I had just initiated a hard turn to the left, high bank, with a lot of speed when the glider began spinning to the left. The glider spun twice in a nose down attitude then went into a vertical dive which it quickly recovered from. This all happened about 200 ft above the trees in front of the ridge I was flying. It happened so fast I felt that I was just along for the ride. Did my inputs help the glider to recover? I have no idea, they were all reflexes, there was no time to think about it, it was all over in a matter of seconds. When I recovered from the dive I was facing into the ridge 20 feet over the trees tops with no air speed and no room to pull in for recovery. If I had another 50 ft to spare I would have been able to get the glider flying again but that wasn't the case. The glider stalled and I plowed through the tree tops ending up on the ground. The only injury I received was from my knee hitting a rock as I made contact with the ground. I really have no explanation on why the glider entered the spin after I initiated the turn other than I may have pushed out more than I normally would but I'm not sure. The snap turn at high speed, that I meant to do, I had done many times before. The only advice I can give is not to initiate any sudden inputs, particularly at high speeds( 40+ MPH), when in close proximity to the ground. I consider myself lucky, even though my glider is destroyed, to come out of this with a swollen knee. Well, has anyone got any spare D-tubes and ribs for sale? - Ferris Vince (10/11/00 9:04:20 am) Atos spins (originally posted 8/30/00) The following was taken from the Oz report: (editor's note: I asked George, "How high a bank?" George responded: "I meant to do a 90 degree, but it went past 90 because the inside wing stalled. When I first initiated the turn I felt the outside wing rise faster than normal. I thought it had entered lifting air, which may have happened, but it kept accelerating because I was entering, or entered a spin immediately." George had initiated a very high-banked turn. Personally, I have never tried to initiate or even continue banking up to 90 degrees or anywhere near it. In the strongest, smallest thermals, I couldn't be over 60 degrees. Therefore, I haven't had occasion to experience what George has.) This all happened about 200 ft above the trees in front of the ridge I was flying. It happened so fast that I felt that I was just along for the ride. So let me get this straight. George is attempting to do a 90 degree banked turn, 200 agl, in mountain air. I would like to know how many flex wing pilots would perform this maneuver. The "G" forces in a 90 degree bank turn go to infinity, unless the pilot either slips or descends, either one at 200' agl could be fatal. George also said he "pushed out" just before the Atos spun. This sounds the same as the two reports of Atos spinning in Europe. In both of those cases the pilots were "pushing out" while flying slow. Rigid wings are not flex wings. They need to be flown more like sailplane and less like a flex wing. Vince Andy (10/11/00 9:05:32 am) Spinning Rigids (originally posted 8/30/00) Sounds like it may indeed have been an incident where the pilot was pushing the limits a bit too far. However, I've already heard enough to stay away from the current crop of rigids indefinitely. Flying Bob's gliders is enough of a test pilot role for me. Plus, looking at the calender I realized that I've just entered my 29th year of hang gliding. Hurray!!! I'd like to at least make it past 30. Happy to just spin my Sensor, - Andy Mike K (10/11/00 9:06:52 am) spins (originally posted 9/22/00) Felix Ruhle has a good discussion on this topic (although something is lost in the translation. See the AIR (atos) web site under safety. http://www.a-i-r.de/ and click on English Mike K (10/11/00 9:08:37 am) Rigid Spins (originally posted 9/25/00) Davis Straubs OZ Reports #181 (www.davisstraub.com)has his latest assesment of this issue. The bottom line seems to be: rigids do not fly like flex wing gliders; don't fly slow or push out or you increase your chances of inducing a spin. Andy (10/11/00 9:11:51 am) Eye Opening ATOS Advice (originally posted 10/10/00) It is pure coincidence that this info came my way right as Vince was beginning to share his experiences with his ATOS, so Vince don't take this as me trying to baby sit you regarding your beautiful new foot launched sailplane. Recently, a pilot has been emailing me asking my advice about topless Sensors, etc. He has been going back and forth between a small ATOS and the Sensor. This person hasn't been flying for some time but in the past has had oodles of hundred plus mile flights including over 1000 hours on Sensors alone. He has been in contact with a VERY experienced pilot who has been flying the ATOS. This ATOS pilot has been making XC headlines of late. The very experienced ATOS pilot told this fellow who has been emailing me, that quote: "Make me swear if I got an Atos, I would fly it like a sailplane and DON"T EVEN ATTEMPT to thermal it below 500'." I've kept the names out of this discussion for obvious reasons. Anyway, I still feel a pilot can safely and enjoyably fly the ATOS, Ghostbuster, etc. It's just becoming more and more obvious that one has to be very careful. By the way, looks like (at least in the short term) this person is going to go with a flex wing. As he puts it: "Checking my old log book, this (not thermalling below 500 feet) would have cut short quite a few low saves. I had gotten myself lost in the damn hype of the rigids and forgot the pleasure of cranking a flexxie 70 degrees in a tiny core without a care in the world." Food for thought, - Andy Greg (10/11/00 9:13:21 am) Thermaling (originally posted 10/10/00) The comment about cranking his flexxie 70 degrees in a thermal is the part I most wonder about with regard to rigids. I am quite interested in the rigids myself, however I would hate to lose that wonderful experience of thermaling a flex wing, feeling it, coaxing it, fighting it, and sometimes falling face first right on over the edge. Maybe the rigids are just as fun and exciting in thermals. I don't know. But, on almost every X/C flight I have, I spend some time working in close to the terrain, often within 100 feet. Andy (10/11/00 9:14:48 am) Thermalling low (originally posted 10/10/00) That's really true. Think of how often you are close to the terrain, even when you way up in the mountains somewhere. The thing that I really worry about is that on every long flight there's ALWAYS at least one low save. It's just a given. Not being able to be aggressive at that time and not being able to fly really slowly during at least some of that low save window would be kind of a bummer. But then again, I suppose you could just get used to flying faster all the time. The problem is, knowing me, I would always be wanting to push the limits and fly just a bit slower than I was supposed to in order to increase my climb in that zero sink stuff which is so common with low saves. You know what it really comes down to? It's just a question of: Do you have the discipline to set limits for yourself that you absolutely will not go past? Like when you're about to land but hanging on and there's cloudstreets all over the sky, and all your buddies are up high and on their way towards long flights, can you maintain discipline and not push a little farther? That's my dilemma with the whole spinning rigids issue. - Andy Vince (10/11/00 9:16:36 am) Davis Straub reply (originally posted 10/10/00) I sent your comments to Davis Straub (OZ report) who probably has more time on the Atos than anyone. He reply is below. I have not done any stalls yet, but according to the latest factory testing (done this summer after the recent rash of spins), the Atos should stall with your arms fully extended. It will fly at min sink with the bar just above your head, and can be safely flown in smooth thermals this way. In all of the spin reports on the Atos I have read, the pilot had their arms extended or nearly so. During my flights I did not get the bar above my eyes. There was no need as Greg could attest. I guess if someone is so unsure of their abilities they should stick to flex wings, preferably a Falcon. Vince Hi Vince, I have thermalled it up from many times below 500' and once from 167'. Loved it. Davis Straub www.davisstraub.com Gales Creek, OR, USA Andy (10/11/00 9:18:24 am) Falcon & ATOS (originally posted 10/10/00) Interesting comment by Vince. Quote: "I guess if someone is so unsure of their abilities they should stick to flex wings, preferably a Falcon." In spite of a lot of stick time (or maybe because of it), it's interesting how Vince seems to be implying that myself (30 years and 1,500+ hrs. of flying hang gliders) and "the other pilot" (same level of experience) are sticking to flex wings because we are unsure of our abilities when at the same time Vince's hours in hang gliders are still low. I wonder why that is? ;>) If there's one hard lesson I've learned over the years, it's that I've seen way too many pilots get killed. Pilots with a lot of air time in hang gliders. Because I care about my flying buddies, when I see something that I feel needs to be brought to our attention, so that we can all be safer pilots, I point it out. Vince, if you take some sort of offense to me pointing this stuff out, that's just too bad. - Andy Vince (10/11/00 5:20:03 pm) Atos I don't take offense any suggestions experienced pilots like yourself have for me. That is why I like flying with the Sonoma Wings club so much. Their experience level is well beyond anything I have to offer. Every time I fly with members of the group, I learn more. I have found that my "stick time" has helped me with hang gliding, but not necessarily flying a hang glider. It is only when talking to high time pilots like yourself that I have learned to fly a flex wing. I have yet to fly with you, but if you talk with other pilots who have flown with me you will find that I am probably the most conservative one on the hill, because of what I know about flying, not in spite of it. I hope that you enjoy flying whatever craft you choose in the future and no one tries to discourage you for doing so. I would be interested in more of your comments, but even more so if the names of the experienced pilots were present. Vince Vince (10/11/00 5:25:18 pm) Another Davis Straub reply Hi Vince, >> I had gotten myself lost in the damn hype of the rigids and forgot the pleasure of cranking a flexxie 70 degrees in a tiny core without a care in the world." >> I've done this a number of times on my ATOS, also. Davis Straub http://www.davisstraub.com/ Gales Creek, OR, USA MattsFlyin (10/11/00 9:25:45 pm) Frigid Wing....Cool It Fellas! Vince and Andy had a spat about a flying wing. "Vince" said Andy "Please be careful when you fly that thing!". "If you think you can't handle it" began Vince's reply "I'll stay away from under you when you drop from the sky!" When Andy read what had Vincent written, he had to laugh out loud. "Matt's stupid poem just hit home, I think we're drawing a crowd." Andy Long (10/12/00 7:44:23 am) Rigids & Matt's new Career As the two individuals who I was referring to have a potential business relationship (ATOS dealer and customer) that I didn't want to jeopardize and how easy it is for distorted versions of original statements to get back to the people who said them to begin with, via the Oz Report, etc., I chose to keep those people's names private. However, I'll email one of them and ask if it's ok if I put names to the "below 500 feet" statement. Vince, I appreciate your words which describe your conservative flying nature. I now have a clearer idea of the kind of pilot you are. Obviously, I was wrong to think otherwise. I hope you have many years of enjoyable flying on your ATOS. It will be great to fly with you sometime and maybe I'll even be able to see the top of your wing some time. :>) - Andy Andy Long (10/12/00 10:15:51 am) Pilot Identities I got an email back from the pilot who was considering the ATOS and it is his desire to not add his name or that of the experienced ATOS pilot to the discussion for the reasons I pointed out, that the two are friends, the comments will change as they are passed around, etc. What is it that they say? "Loose lips sink ships"? Or is it "Tits". Ya, that's it. "Loose Tits sink Ships". Anyways, ask Matt the Poet about that one. Suffice it to say that the pilot who was considering an ATOS was a certified instructor in hang gliding, has flown all over the US and has between 1,500 and 2,000 hours in hang gliders. We now return to our previously scheduled program. - Andy Leo Jones (10/12/00 10:58:11 pm) Crankin' and Bankin' I haven't yet flown a rigid wing hang glider, but I have flown airplanes, sailplanes and hang gliders, so here's my two cents worth. Flying a flex wing hang glider is so much more a "seat of the pants" approach to flying than flying an airplane or sailplane that there are things that each respective group of pilots might not be aware of when theorising about the other. Now, in the new rigid hang gliding wings, we have a new concept of control which is neither fully aerodynamic nor fully weight shift. It is a new paradigm in which we must learn from each discipline. When learning to fly airplanes or sailplanes, attention to one's airspeed is paramount. Failure to do so is probably the single biggest factor in fatal accidents. Fly too slow and the aircraft will stall probably followed by a spin if recovery action is not swift. This is a seriously bad situation within say 500 ft of the ground, or even higher, depending upon the aircraft. Fly too fast and your wings fall off. At all stages of an aircraft's flight the pilot closely monitors the airspeed, particularly when close to the ground and when not in straight and level flight. Though aerodynamic three axis contols are more effective than weight shift, the immediate feedback via stick and rudder is necessarily less, and the mass of an airplane or sailplane ensures that recovery from a stall or spin takes up far more height than in a hang glider. By contrast, hang glider pilots are in general not used to having to pay strict attention to their airspeed. Oh sure, we know "by the feel" of the glider "how fast" we are flying, and we are normally careful not to fly too slow near the ground, but it is only comparatively recently that most of us have even had any kind of airspeed indicator, these still tend to be crude, and we pay far less attention to it than do airplane or sailplane pilots. Moreover, while a stall at say 100 ft agl for a hang glider might be alarming, it mostly would not be fatal, whereas a stall below 300 ft in a light plane or sailplane would probably prove to be so. What is more, flex wing hang gliders are difficult to spin, and will generally not do so unless the pilot tries hard to make them. Now we have the new crop of rigid wing hang gliders. Not surprisingly, because the wings are rigid and do not deform and shed loads as easily as flex wings, they will not only stall and spin, but are far more easily capable of exceeding VNE and folding up. If hang glider pilots are to fly these new wings then they must learn the lessons of their airplane and sailplane pilot peers. If you fly one near the ground as you would a flex wing hang glider then you may get badly bitten. This doesn't mean that one cannot thermal one's Atos or whatever when close to the ground - I have been in a sailplane, "polishing rocks" in the high Sierra in rowdy conditions as low as I would ever want to go in a hang glider, but if you do so then you'd better be flying it with your airspeed very much in the forefront of your mind, just like a sailplane or airplane pilot would. In this respect a pilot with experience in flying these types of aircraft would likely do better and be less prone to accidentally stalling and spinning into the ground than a hang glider pilot, no matter how experienced in flex wings, if they had no experience in flying 3 axis control aircraft. To a hang glider pilot this may sound scary, but it's a fact of life for all pilots of conventional 3 axis aircraft. Nevertheless most of them manage not to stall and spin inadvertantly, especially near the ground. Leo Vince (10/16/00 5:16:42 pm) Atos drawback I have found one drawback to having a rigid wing. It takes up the place of two gliders on the rack, well almost three. It can not be up against the side of the rack because the leading edge ("D" cell) would rub against it, unless the rack is padded in this area, most are not. So I have to move it away from the edge, which takes up even more room. This pretty much limits my truck to myself and two other pilots. One of the reasons (a small one) that I did not go up to St. Helena this weekend, was I did not have a driver, and I thought it would be asking a lot for my glider to take up so much room on someone else's truck. 95% of the time I have my truck and my driver so I am not worried about it, but it is something to think about if one plans on going rigid. Vince Leo Jones (10/29/00 12:36:05 am) enormous space wasting rigid wing gliders Don't worry about it Vince, we will (nearly) always retrieve you. We have allowed few pilots to walk all the way from the LZ to launch at St Helena (especially if you buy us enough beer). We'd do it anyway to see you fly your ATOS off there. Leo Vince (11/10/00 9:41:14 am) Atos first flight (originally posted 10/8/00) I now have two flights on my Atos. The first was not very good, the second was much better. I was hanging about 3" too high (in spite of my preflight when I picked up the glider from Mission). Greg had some hang straps with him so I was able to hang lower and that really made it more comfortable. The handling is quite light both in pitch and roll. After my 2 hour flight on Sunday my arms were not at all tired. It rolls a lot quicker than it did on my test flight at Funston. This might be due to the rougher air at Slide. It thermals excellent, but it does take a little high siding, in spite of what the manufacture claims. I am still getting used to the pitch sensitivity. It takes very little change in pressure to go from 30 to 45. The best indication of speed seems to be bar position and the sound of the wind. Which brings up a new problem. This glider flies 10 mph faster than my super sport, even faster when in rough air. The added wind noise makes it difficult for me to hear my vario. So far I have not had any great landings. My new Z5 harness prevents me from getting my hands any higher than my waist on landing. On both landing I could not get my hands high enough to get under the glider and run it out. Both were in 0 to 3 mph (at 5,000'). I think I will either have to change harnesses or try flairing from the rear wires. The sink rate at speed is so much better than my Super Sport. Even when I was getting 600 fpm down I was still getting 12 to 1 glide. I never saw less than 8 to 1 both days. The performance is not that much better than a Fusion. The pilot is still 80+ percent of the performance. I was able to catch up to Greg in between thermals, but he still kicked my butt both days because he got the thermals and I did not. Vince Vince (11/10/00 9:42:22 am) Re: Atos first flight (originally posted 10/9/00) I downloaded my flight data from Sunday's flight. My best thermal was 1280 fpm (10 second average). Three thermals were over 1000 fpm. This just about ties the biggest air I have seen at St. John. My highest altitude was 14,460'. The ride was as smooth (or rough) as could be expected in this type of air. There have been reports that the ride on an Atos in rough air is worse than a flex wing. I found it to be no worse, but different. I think due to its faster speed, the bumps are sharper than a flex wing. I went weightless twice so I think I was getting some pretty good turbulence. There is a tendency, when hitting a particularly large bump, for the control bar to pull forward. I have heard that a few of the pilots that have tumbles the Gostbuster had the bar ripped from their hands. The climb rate was excellent. A couple of times over slide I came in under a couple of pilots and climbed right through them, in the same thermal. I believe it will be harder to get up in a small diameter thermal due to the high speed on has to fly. It makes for a larger circle. Vince highhuber (12/11/00 11:08:51 pm) Atos Drawbacks Vince, I,m building new racks for my truck and would like to be able to carry 4 Atos at once. Could you give me the dimensions of yours in width and depth.Also when can I schedule a test flight.hh Vince (12/12/00 3:47:24 pm) Atos drawbacks The Atos is 20" wide and 9" thick in the bag. You do not want to let 2 Atos' touch each other on the rack because they would be rubbing leading edge to leading edge. The main thing to remember is the leading edges are on facing out when folded (and they are the "D" cell). This means the edge of the rack would have to be padded if the Atos was up against it. You should also have at least 4 cross bars. I have a padded XC bag from Betty that helps keep the leading edge from getting dinged. As for a test flight, if you are serious, Pat at Mission soaring regularly gives demo flights at Funston. If I end up at a sight with someone I know and the day does not look epic, I won't mind swapping gliders. Vince highhuber Registered User (12/12/00 5:31:24 pm) Racks Vince, so give me what you would consider best design for transporting a rigid. Would it be in a specialy designed box with nice padding, like a plastic bow case with a lid and locks which is bolted to your rac ks. Maybe I can start a buisness with that idea. Anyway vince or anybody with ideas or money, I,m thinking of five nicely padded 1x2 steel crossmembers, 3 on the shell and 2 on cab with gutter mount Yakima hardware cab only. The back racks will be bolted through the shell to a interior frame bolted to the bed. I,m thinking if 84 inches is enough to carry 4 Atos side by side I,ll go with that design , similar to Mikes racks on his suburban . 84 may be too wide for full time use so possibly adjustable racks. What do you think Vince is an Atos best transported flat like I,m suggesting. Also 84 inches should easily haul 6 flex wings. The front and back racks will be totally idependant so I have some concern with twisting also. hh Greg (1/23/01 5:26:15 pm) New Rigid Evolution Check out the new Aeros Stalker in the current OZ Report at http://www.davisstraub.com/OZ/ It has true differential ailerons, flaps, and SPADD's (split aileron drag devices). This is an interesting step beyond spoilerons, and ought to provide better more responsive handling. The entire trailing edge is comprised of rigid controlable surfaces. This seems to hail the third generation of modern rigids. By the time my Fusion finally cries "Uncle" there should be an ample supply of very nice rigids to choose from. Ron (1/24/01 3:03:45 pm) More Stalker pictures check out GW's site for more detailed pictures of the spoilers. www.justfly.com/pages/stalker.htm Vince Endter (5/13/01 4:51:04 pm) Atos weight I weighed my Atos today with all the pads and both bags (like it is in transport). 82 pounds +- 1 pound. Vince