Author Comment Ernie Camacho Unregistered User (3/16/01 9:59:18 am) WebSite The club website team is evaluating a new look for our web site, and we need your input. If you haven't seen it yet, go to: http://www.sonomawings.com/ How do you like it? Give us some detail - what aspects do you like better / worse? What changes do you think would make the site easier to use? Our goals in revamping the web site were: - faster loading (shorter home page with fewer images) - better organization (easier to find what you're looking for) - easier to maintain - different areas are segregated into their own pages. - easier to make the home page look 'fresh'. The page-top photo can easily be changed every few weeks or whenever a new one is submitted. How well does this iteration of the home page fulfill these goals? Are there other goals we should have? Please contribute your thoughts. The web site is evolving; be a part of it. Thanks Hangfly Unregistered User (3/16/01 10:52:18 am) Website new look I like it! I must admit I thought the old look was fine and had reservations about it getting screwed up if it was changed. I particularly like the narrow buttons on the side of the newsletter. There's more reading room than you get with most web pages. Good Job, Charley ;) John Blacet ezOP (3/16/01 12:17:24 pm) Re: WebSite I'm prejudiced, but as the only professional web site designer in the club and the past master of this site..: 1. The header of a web page should say something about the organization. The original page showed a local mountain, a local sight: vineyards and showed a group of people flying. This says something about our locale and the fact that we are a group or club. The new site shows not a bad picture of Ernie but this is more appropriate for ernieflies.com. The header should really be an illustration and not a mere photo. It should not change all the time. This is to give viewers a sense that they have reached the right location and gives the site a sense of consistency. I suggest gathering some site photos and trying to come up with something illustrative of the club in the year 2001. Include images of PGs and modern gliders for example. 2. The second key feature of web site design is the menu bar. The original site had a horizontal bar that loaded quickly and did not take up a lot of room. No scrolling is necessary to access other areas of the main page or the site. The test page uses up the entire center column for a rather large menu, leaving no room for anything else to speak of. You also have to scroll down to access the whole menu. Taking up so much room leaves out all the other intersting bits that might attract the viewers attention and intice them to stay. For instance, on the original page we had some HG ads, a "What's New" box with animated gifs and meeting info, etc. (Some folks may question the ads; these HG biz have been real generous when it comes to providing free stuff for our fly-in, think about it.... plus these folks provide excellent products and the members deserve to be informed about them). 3. Tyro web page designers are prone to the "too much" or "too little" syndrome. You've all seen the sites that go on and on and on... and you've seen the sites that load up like the test page and you may think, "Is that it?". These types of pages force you to load up a lot of other pages to see anything; sort of annoying. The original page is a bit long, but generally loaded up quickly while you were looking at "What's New" or the menu. In return, you got a lot of site information right up front. 4. The logo: The more I see this, the more I think it looks a lot better on a t-shirt! It's time to loose the 70's and get ourselves a 2001 logo. Since logo design is a specialized art, it would be good to seek a professional or perhaps interst a SRJC design class in the project; they would probably love it! Even if we had to spend some $$$, a ten year life for a good logo would spread out the cost. 5. The color scheme: It doesn't look too bad on the main page although I found the same scheme on the secondary pages disturbing. These pages also seemed to have only navigation lists and no real content! (Click, load, click, load....) I did like the tiny menu at the bottom of these pages. 6. In the past, we have always just given jobs to the next volunteer and let them run with it. When it comes to the web site, this is such a public face to our club that I feel strongly that no one individual should bear all the responsibility for the task. That's why I opened up the process to the club officers. We need to be VERY professional in the web site design area and we need to insure that this is the way things are done in the future. There is certainly the opportunity for improvement by pooling ideas, and there is a lot of potential talent in the club but this will only work if the web site maintenance folks are open to these ideas. The typical response to any comments I have made been recently are in the "It's a matter of taste, and mine is just as good as yours..." category." 7. As far as measuring the sucess of a new web site, we do have detailed "hit" info available to all the officers so that is one tool to use. The other tool is the needs of the membership; that's where you come in. Take a critical look and offer comments, constructive or not. It is certainly easier to say "Nice Job" and let it go, after all, no one is getting the big $$$ to do this, but you need to think about the site a bit and make your contribution. Jon James Unregistered User (3/16/01 4:06:05 pm) New Look There are several things I do not like about the new test web site. I prefer the more open look of our existing site. Don't like the vertical list, don't like the titles, they don't give me any idea of what's behind them. Not intuitive enough. Too dense, too much frame, not enough visual interest or information. But there is something much bigger about this web site debate that I don't like. This issue is proving to be surprisingly divisive. John Blacet ezOP (3/16/01 5:15:25 pm) Re: New Look Devisive? Nope not me. Hope it's not someone else... I think debate is the way to improve this whole web site thing, my previous efforts included. It may not be really comfortable for everyone (me included) but it all forces us to look at things (spot light = ON). Jon James Unregistered User (3/16/01 5:40:23 pm) Divisive John, No, it's not you. I think your actions and advice have been right on at every step. We argued about this all at length last night, and I, for one, felt pretty bad by the end of the evening. Maybe the divisive one is me. I don't mind arguing, but I don't like loosing. No doubt much of this is a matter of taste, and it was valuable to hear what other people liked and didn't like in a web site. But at one point, a statement to the effect of "no matter what we decide, there will be someone who won't like it..." was made. Well, maybe that's true, but I think we're selling ourselves short if this is our standard. For example, when you decided to make a web site years ago, and made it, I don't remember anyone who didn't like it. I think it is possible to make decisions that everyone likes, or at least can accept. When we stop short of this, and accept that 'some people won't like this', then I wonder why a decision is so important that we would risk alienating one or more of our friends/pilots and I think this kind of decision-making is divisive. It's much harder for groups to make decisions than for individuals. And yet, the Web Team will be making a lot of group decisions. I'm sure we'll get better at it. Vince Unregistered User (3/16/01 7:31:07 pm) Website I like the new website better. The old one had too many fonts and sizes, loaded slow and did not have a "modern" look to it. I suggested to Ernie that we have a picture of a modern glider and harness on the main page so visitors get an instant idea what hang gliding is about. The picture could be anybody. But it would be nice if it were a topless glider and modern harness and instruments. Rich in his carbon CG would be great. Lately I have been working on a CNC machine. I have looked at close to a hundred sites. Some of them you have to really look close to figure out what the site is about. When you see a picture of what you are looking for, well they say "a picture is worth a thousand words". I have only been flying hang gliders for 2 years. When I first found the Sonoma Wings site, I thought to myself, it looks like the same stuff from the '70s. I think a lot of people still have the attitude about hang gliding that started in the early '70s, that the gliders are made of bamboo and plastic and kill their pilots with alarming regularity, that we "jump" off cliffs, etc. I feel it's important give a visitor the impression that the hang gliding we do now is safe, fun, modern and in tune with the times. I have a DSL connection so loading times are not that important to me now, but when I had a dial up connection, if a site loaded slow, I usually gave up. I now surf the web one to two hours a day (I no longer watch TV) and I know what I like to see in a web site. I can't always describe it, but when I see it I can say "that's a nice web site". One of the things I like to see is the main page to be like a table of contents. This is just one persons opinion, from a users standpoint. I do not design web sites for a living (although I have one of my own). Vince Ernie Camacho Unregistered User (3/16/01 7:57:40 pm) Good ideas. Keep 'em coming I want to thank you folks for contributing. The only way we can make this a true 'club' site is to get everyone's ideas into the mix, then stir it up. Jon, I know that, especially in programming, it's very easy to invest something of yourself in the product. Feelings get hurt if something negative about the product is voiced. But, good programing, and good web design (at least good in the eyes of the club), comes from the give and take of discussing these issues. Already we're seeing comments both for and against specific elements of the new web site's 'look'. At some point we'll have to decide whether a changing photo or a static graphic should grace the top of the home page, for example. But the end result will be something that the majority of the club accepts, and that's good. I look at this as moving forward, getting stronger. In order to do that, you have to go through the 'burn' on the way. The main players in this effort are, I believe, John who designed the original site, and has maintained it up until now, and me, who has taken past comments to heart and provided an alternative site incorporating those ideas, for us all to evaluate. I'm glad to hear John say he doesn't feel this exercise is divisive. I also don't feel this is divisive. Sure, we'll argue our points, all of us, but in the end we'll accept the majority's view, and celebrate. The rest of you, please contribute your opinions. The more-detailed the better. Thank you, --ernie-- Jon James Unregistered User (3/17/01 8:20:37 am) Pages Ernie, I agree we are making progress and agree that change can be hard. You've done a lot of work on this and I feel bad being critical of it. I still think we've changed too much all at once, and haven't really fixed what's broken. Loading time is an issue for new visitors but not such a big deal for regulars. Holding interest while the page loads is slightly different from 'loads fast'. The complaints about the old site, that I heard, were that much of the material was out-of-date, it loads slow, it was hard to get updated, had been static and gotten a little stale. One of these problems, hard to get updated, has been fixed completely. Another issue that seems to generate controversy is should there be ads on the first page? I believe we should show some small, selected adds, to demonstrate our support for small hang gliding businesses, especially ones we know and like. It makes our site look more modern and legitimizes it because if businesses will take out ads it must be a happening site. The other point of view is that these people are getting something for almost free and what's in it for us? Jon Leo Jones Unregistered User (3/17/01 12:21:20 pm) New website Surely the only reason that we have "changed too much" is because we have never been given the opportunity to sit down with the original webmaster and to critique and learn. Ernie just did this "alternative website" because nothing was happening, and he's just trying out something new. I liked the old site a lot, but I like the new one better. Like Vince I don't watch much TV but I do surf the net. I like the idea of haveing a different photo every month or so on the opening page. It shows that there is an active interest in the site by its producers. It keeps people interested. I dislike sites that are static - I mean if you have seen all the stuff before then what's the point in looking at it again? An eye grabbing front page that loads fast is good. It doesn't matter if the photo isn't local, though if it is, with a club pilot in it, then so much the better. I would say that the more often the site is updated with new material, photos etc. the better. Old stuff can aways be archived. I realise that new stuff depends on new material being submitted, but keeping stuff like Exxtasy photos or someone winning a comp 4 years ago as if it's the latest breaking news, is pointless. John B did a great job of starting the website, but Ernie has also done a great job of adding a lot of photos and new stuff, which has kept me coming back to look. I don't mind the advertising, as Jon points out it makes us look more real, but I'm not sure about continued ads for folks who do nothing to support the club (unless we really like 'em) I like having a smaller front page, it definately navigates easier, I'm not sure about the way the material has been categorised, or if that many categories are necessary. But surely the best thing is if this is an ongoing process of design, with a webmaster who is able, amenable, and willing to update, compromise and make changes. Leo Ralph Unregistered User (3/17/01 3:17:19 pm) Website I've just been reading the website debate. The website is very important to me, as it's my only real way of being a part of the Club since I live so far away. First of all, and most importantly, I want to express my gratitude to John Blacet, for pioneering the website in the first place, and developing it as he has done over the years. I think he's done a great job, and deserves the club's unqualified support for that. It's a great website, especially since the bulletin board was added, which made it a dynamic, functioning part of the club, to which I come back whenever I can. And I also want to commend Ernie for his work on the Photo sections and others, which added a great deal to the site. Like Charley, I liked the website fine before the big change, didn't think it needed updating, liked the logo image because it reminded me of years of flying at Elk Mountain, and liked the easy navigation from the menu bar. Which isn't to say that I don't like the new version as well, as I like them both, each in their own way. I never found the old one to be slow loading, as I could always click to where I wanted to go, even while the image was still loading. Like Jon, I am sorry if this has created divisiveness in the Club. I think John Blacet has earned the right to continue to oversee the development of the website if he so desires. He should have the final say. While I also like the new design, I don't think it should be imposed without John's concurrence, input, and approval. It's more than just a matter of personal taste. It's a creation, a work of art, an offspring, and John is the one who fathered it. Ernie Camacho Unregistered User (3/17/01 10:53:51 pm) The art of web design Ralph, thanks for your comments. I'd like to respond to one item you mentioned that touches on the sensitivity of making changes to the web site. You say about the web site's design: "It's more than just a matter of personal taste. It's a creation, a work of art, an offspring, and John is the one who fathered it." It is true that John created it. Instead of looking at it as an un-alterable work of art, we should be looking at it in the same way that you may have created a bug-free program to process the County payroll, or Leo would have painted a victorian house in just the right color scheme to bring out the gingerbread, or Kurt would have created a workshop for an sculptor that reflects the artist's interaction with nature. In all these, the artisan, the creator of the work, invested themselves in an attempt do provide a quality product, but that product doesn't truly belong to them - it belongs to the person who hired them to do the work. When that product - program, house, studio - needs to be worked on again, the original artisan may be contracted with to do the work, or it may be done by others. By all means, we are working with John on this project, but we are also trying to improve the web site. Of course "improve" is the operative term here. What constitues an improvement is in the eye of the beholder. And that's exactly what we're trying to get - the input of all you "beholder's" so that this group effort pays off. Jon James Unregistered User (3/18/01 10:56:25 am) art for hire Ernie, I think your comments bring me, at least, closer to an understanding of who 'owns' the web site and how 'ownership' changes hands. Your example of Leo painting a house, artistically, does not apply to the web site because John Blacet was never 'hired' to create the site. If Picasso woke up one morning and painted a painting, on his own, uncomissioned, then Picasso 'owns' that painting and no one else does. In the beginning, John was the sole owner. The matter is more complicated because the site was about the Club and it's use was donated to the Club, by John. The Club did have a legitimate interest in the site, it uses the Club name, etc. Money seems to be a hot button for a lot of us, and I think when John asked the Club to underwrite some of the cost of the web site, that changed things. The feeling that 'we're paying for some of this, so we ought to get some say in it' is logical. And this has come to pass. Speaking of money, and the big picture, what value should we put on the Web Site? I think web design, such as what John donated, may sell for thousands of dollars in the real world. The site is successful and John has made a big contribution to the Club. Ernie's contributions are mounting up rapidly, too, and their market value is also in the thousands. I've tried to contribute, and now that Matt, and others have access, even more will contribute. I think we're very close to getting what we wanted. All this costs the Club about ~$96 a year. What a deal. Now that we've almost got it, please remind me, What do we want from the web site? Jon James Unregistered User (3/18/01 11:10:10 am) Owning Art You can argue that the Taliban 'own' the artwork, too, so they have every right to destroy it. If I buy Van Gogh's "Starry Night", I have every right to paint a big hand glider in the sky. The 'artistic content' of our web site is a difficult point, but I, for one, think it's important. The site needs to change quite often, to stay 'new', so I think the artistic issue will be with us for a long time. Greg Unregistered User (3/18/01 8:48:46 pm) Web Site It is a mistake to think of the web site in terms of being a work of art or something created by someone who then owns it. It is an ongoing process, a work of art if you like, that was started by someone and continues to change and evolve to suit the needs of the club. From what I can tell, John did an excellent job putting the site together in the first place, and has virtually single handedly maintained it over the years. By doing so he has made an extremely important contribution to the club which no doubt required a great deal of time and effort. For that we certainly woe him a debt of gratitude. Ernie has poured much of his time and effort into the site as well over the last few years. More recently, due to the overwhelming lack of constructive submittals, he took it upon himself to put together a framework to stimulate discussion of the web site upgrade. He has honestly and selflessly invested a great deal of his own effort into the project. I am grateful to both John and Ernie for their efforts. From reading the postings on this topic I can tell that just about everyone liked the existing site but had some thoughts and ideas about how they would like to see it evolve. I think we should have each member submit their thoughts to a single person via direct email to tabulate or summarize. This would be sort of a "secret ballot" of sorts which could then be presented to the membership as a framework for discussion at a meeting. That way we can get lots of ideas out on the table without feeling the need to respond to each comment during the process. Like most of the rest of you, I have some ideas of my own about our excellent web site. But we’d better hurry; the season’s almost here. Soon we’ll be too busy typing up flight reports. John Blacet ezOP (3/19/01 9:33:02 am) Re: WebSite A couple meetings ago, I proposed a plan to divide up the responsibilities for web site maintenance as below: *************** A preliminary list of responsibilities is show below: President: (Albert) meeting info, Map, Calendar, Links Vice President: (Ernie) Bulletin Board and more below..... Site Director: (Leo) Site Info, Story Time, WX info Safety Officer: (Jon) Site Info safety information, XC Reports, Dealers & Training Secretary: (Kurt) Meeting Minutes and minutes Archive, Contact Info, For Sale Treasurer: (Matt) Member List (add dues paid column), Officers , How to Join, Pay Pal payment processing for dues, T-shirts, and Fly-Ins. Newsletter Editor: (Ernie) newsletter web page (new page with link to main page with teaser -- “February Newsletter with a thrilling account of Leo’s XC from St Helena!” -- for example. Ernie could also continue his fine job as photo page editor, if willing. Web Site Director: (John) guidance, troubleshooting, contact and bill paying ******************* Some of these folks have not gotten their feet wet re this web page editing thing but it's gotten a lot simpler. It would help to address changes to the appropriate person to spur them into action. Matt has been unpdating the member list from his data base program, for example. Jon James Unregistered User (3/19/01 10:16:37 am) Changes I thought John's suggested division of labor for the web site is a good, reasonable start. I've been lax about establishing some kind of a safety page, and had forgotten that I should look at what we have on Dealers and Training. For those who haven't gotten their feet wet, we should make sure that everyone can access the web site to make the changes they want to see in their areas of responsibility. Ernie loaded an FTP program on Albert's computer last Thursday. Leo may not be set up yet. Who else? I think it was helpful for everyone to see how quickly, and easily, changes can be made if you have the programs. It alleviates the 'lack of access' problem. If someone doesn't want to code html, there are enough who can, to help out. Jon James Unregistered User (3/19/01 6:30:07 pm) Ownership Greg is right that the web site is not a great work of art, but it is a creative endeavor and it was created by someone. Perhaps the creator even has feelings. It could happen. The issue of 'ownership' has been argued to death but I believe it's important to understand who 'owns' the right or duty to make changes. If I don't like some aspect of the web site, is it ok for me to go and change it? Without consulting the previous 'owner'? To some extent, I think this is what we've done and I think this may not be the best method. Greg mentioned the "overwhelming lack of constructive submittals". I think there have been a lot of constructive submittals. I also think most of them have been ignored. I don't see that we have much of a plan yet, except 'let's put some different stuff up and see what reaction we get'. While this approach does have value, and helps us hear what people think, I still think we have two unsolved problems. One, I don't think we've fixed what was broken, yet, we've fixed something else and two, what standards will we use to measure success? John Blacet ezOP (3/20/01 11:14:13 am) Re: web site editing As outlined on the page: www.sonomawings.com/edit.html Web site editing has gotten very easy. You don't really need any other programs besides (newer versions) of Netscape. I have been using the Netscape Composer program which comes attached to Netscape and does not require any html coding skills at all, to do a lot of my work for the past few weeks. Once you get used to it, things go very quickly! You can get very complicated and cumbersome with all kinds of different programs, but it is not worth the trouble for what we are doing. Most WP programs have the ability these days to export html or you can just cut and paste the text into Composer. Ernie Camacho (3/21/01 3:18:07 pm) Website Goals Jon posed a question: <snip> I still think we have two unsolved problems. One, I don't think we've fixed what was broken, yet, we've fixed something else and two, what standards will we use to measure success? <endsnip> I have asked John Blacet to write up a set of design goals that we could use to measure success. In the meantime, I'll make a stab at listing some goals that I and others have voiced. Before I do that though, I'll need to list what I believe the three audiences are that our site must serve. These audiences tie in nicely with the club's stated mission, as described on the club info page: 1. We want to foster communication and commaradarie among club members. The Bulletin Board, Email broadcast list, and club calendar help us stay in touch. So, one audience is current members. They pretty much know what they want and most probably have 'favorites' set to take them to these pages, as well as to the weather page, another well-used service. 2. We want to attract new members to the club. I know that I'm always refering people to the club website. So, another audience is prospective members, or people just curious about our sport. For them, the site should present a positive picture of both the sport (sites, schools, photos, links), and ourselves (BB, club info, calendar, stories, etc.) The website should present these to the newcomer in a well-organized, easy-to-navigate way. It is for these folks that most of the design elements are important. 3. We want to acquire and preserve flying sites. This audience would be both existing pilots who want to fly our sites, and the general public, especially people who own land or live near our sites. We want to give pilots the information they need to fly responsibily, and we want to show the public that we take our site-administration duties seriously. Another of our goals is to promote safety, and that fits in here also. So much for our audiences. How do we determine that our website design is successfully serving them? How about: 1. New arrivals to the site can find what they're looking for quickly. 2. People who drop in and browse around don't get lost. They can easily navigate their way through the site. 3. Website content is kept 'fresh' with new information, to entice visitors to return and see 'what's new'. 4. Current members can get to the pages they're interested in quickly, without having to wade through information they don't need at the moment. 5. A survey that is available to all visitors shows an 80 percent satisfaction level (of course this survey doesn't currently exist). 6. The website, as a whole, reinforces the view that Sonoma Wings is a group of dedicated individuals who have fun together while promoting the fun of flying, safely. Do these goals cover it? Does the new site design satisfy these goals? Did the original site satisfy these goals? Greg (3/21/01 11:08:48 pm) Wallpaper / Background Ernie, What happened to the blue cloud background on the test site main page? I liked that. Did it slow the loading down? John Blacet ezOP (3/22/01 7:40:24 am) Re: WebSite What happened to all the other comments on the web site? This is an important topic to keep for a while, no? Ernie Camacho (3/22/01 8:25:07 am) Wallpaper, Discussion start Greg: The test site's main page has all the same elements - the background is still there. To specifically answer your question, background images are typically very small and load fast. The browser takes that small image (of clouds in this case) and tiles it to cover the entire background. Text loads fast, small images load pretty fast, big images take the longest to load. Interestingly enough, animated images are good and bad in this respect. They're usually small enough to load reasonably fast, but they're composed of a whole bunch of individual images (I've seen up to 30), that must be displayed one-after-the-other to create the animation. If you have a PC that isn't super fast, it only takes a couple of these animated images to really bog down your processor. John, I wanted to keep the BB discussion on a single page, to avoid confusion, so I placed the discussion up to this point on our website, with a pointer to it on the home page and at the top of this page (see the intro msg). If this creates confusion, I'm sorry; that wasn't my intention. Jon James (3/22/01 5:14:33 pm) hot buttons Geez, here I go again. Ernie did a very nice summary of what we're looking for in our web site. I appreciate this list because it keeps us all working in the same direction and reduces confusion, etc. But Ernie mentioned that one of the purposes of our web site is to: "2. We want to attract new members to the club..... So, another audience is prospective members....It is for these folks that most of the design elements are important." "Attracting new members" has never been a goal of our Club. Please don't misunderstand me. I value our new members highly. I'm glad to meet and fly with new members. However, we've had a lot of discussions in the past about what "Attract new members" means. This may be a subtle point. We're here to provide camradrie, sites, access to the rating system, etc, for all pilots, new or old, who want to join us. We welcome everyone. But we've always intentionally avoided 'attracting new members' as a Club goal. We've done the Rose Parade and the RV&Boat show to increase our exposure. Conversely, we limited the scope of last year's St John meet to focus more on our own club members and less on 'attracting' a big turn-out. I'm surprised to read that a main reason for web site design changes is to appeal to a group that we have never targeted and have purposely excluded from our stated purposes, in the past. "There are 4 things that we, as a club, are dedicated to: 1: Encouraging a sense of community among area hang glider pilots. 2: Establishing and preserving flying sites so as to protect the rights and property of land owners. 3: Promoting safety and education. 4: Making the USHGA rating system more accessible to area pilots." And another thing, USHGA membership has been declining for nearly 2 decades. Lots of people have been unsuccessful at 'attracting new members'. Why do we think a minor, cosmetic change to our web site will succeed while so many others have failed? The best way to 'attract new members' is to have a strong, active, open Club (which we do). An even better way would be to re-open Dillon Beach. Vince (3/23/01 6:43:32 pm) Picture Great picture of Rich on the website! Vince -------------- Ernie responds: Thanks, Vince. I put my Minolta camera on Rich's glider, just like I did with you and your ATOS. Hopefully, the rest of you folks will get jealous and either get a camera of your own, or borrow mine for a flight. Then we'll have enough photos to rotate 'em every few weeks or so. BTW, yours will be back up soon, Vince, the rotation is pretty short so far. Ernie Camacho (3/23/01 11:58:54 pm) Attracting new members I see your point Jon. We want to service our membership, but beating the bushes to bring in new members isn't a stated priority of our club. And yes, I did notice that "attract new members" wasn't in our club's goals (listed on the club info page), but I phrased it that way anyway. Sorry. Let me put it this way. Those of us who are familiar with the site know where we want to go and don't pay much attention to all the other pages. It's the people who stumble on the site, by accident or because (like the two new fellows who came to our last meeting) they're interested in hang gliding and have been searching the web, who poke around all the corners of our web site. It's for these 'strangers' that we want the site to be well layed out. I can get around in my messy house just fine, but when I know visitors will be coming over, I try and hide all the piles of unfolded clothes ;-) I don't expect that the look of our site will attract new members. It's the flying that does that. And the good spirits of our members. MattsFlyin (4/21/01 3:54:49 am) Web Site Suggestion Would it be possible to put the pilot's name, flying site name, location, type of glider and photo credit in small letters next to the picture at the top of our website? (I'm still on Maui time if your wondering why I'm posting at 4 A.M.) Ernie Camacho Moderator (4/23/01 9:18:47 am) Re: Web Site Suggestion Good suggestion, Matt. At the bottom-left of the home page is a link to "photo credit", where you'll see the photo again along with a description of the pilot, wing, location, etc. I put the photo credit info on a separate page 'cause there was more I wanted to say about the pilot than could fit in a senctence or two. Plus, I didn't want to re-edit the home page every time the photo changed. As it is, I now have several photos, and 'photo credits' waiting, so that the photo can easily be changed periodically. It may be that the link to the photo credit should be closer to the photo. What do you think?